A hypothetical question.
I’d like to test out the new comment system I’ve implemented in a hopefully fun way. I’m going to ask what I think is an interesting and somewhat ridiculous hypothetical question.
If you had to pick between living in a land where you only had negative rights and a land where you only had positive rights, which one would you live in? Here are a few examples of each from Wikipedia’s page on negative and positive rights.
Rights considered negative rights may include civil and political rights such as freedom of speech, private property, freedom from violent crime, freedom of worship, habeas corpus, a fair trial, freedom from slavery and the right to bear arms.
Rights considered positive rights may include other civil and political rights such as police protection of person and property and the right to counsel, as well as economic, social and cultural rights such as public education, health care, social security, and a minimum standard of living.
So, after weighing what you’d be keeping and what you’d be giving up, where would you want to go? Does your answer change depending on whether you’re single or have a family? Is there a particular right that would determine your decision?
Please respond by commenting, and also, please respond to one another. You should be able to use OpenIDs (you might have one already and not even know it) and Gravatars. You can also post pictures now in your comments, but I may disable this in the future because of the potential for making people violently throw up. Thanks!
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January 1st, 2009 at 10:58 am
I think I'm going to have to go with negative. I'd be that dude sitting on his porch with like 6 shotguns, tons of impaled trespassers on the gate, and an assload of explosives rigged up so if Phil did come and shoot me he'd go up in the flames and shrapnel as well. Pretty sure people would leave me alone for the most part just because of how bad it looks.
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Yeah but that's what all those shotguns would be for. They could do whatever they want to everyone else but I wouldn't let them come remotely close. Unless I secretly worked for them and sold everyone else out….shiittttt. I think I'll probably have to upgrade to those auto turrets in Aliens.
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
On the other hand though, Chris, I know that you would go crazy if you had to live with unrestrained super-mega-ultra corporations dominating everything in everybody's life and getting away with everything. No?
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:29 am
Before I could choose between negative and positive rights in this hypothetical world, I'd have to first come to understand the distinction. It seems that negative rights are for the most part individual oriented, "leave-me-alone" type rights. And positive rights seem to be those one experiences interfacing with society – rights based on expectations from what others provide (i.e. what we expect in return for our taxes). Both are necessary in a civilized society. But if I was forced to pick one or the other I guess I'd choose the negative rights. Negative rights seem more fundamental. The positive rights would evolve after the negative rights were firmly established and communities of individuals built consensus to guarantee the negative rights. Humans are social animals and so the evolution of communities and positive rights would evolve eventually. Since both types of rights are necessary, the question is which type of rights would lead to adding the other type the quickest.
My decision is also based on the hypothetical given that I would have these negative rights, without the need of police or other enforcement.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:44 am
I think that's basically my position. With the given that you get those rights without the police, that's probably the way to go as long as you can be part of some revolution to eventually obtain the other type of rights.
The only thing though is that since this is an imaginary world, part of making the decision in the first place could be that you don't ever have any hope of getting the other type of rights. That was never specified in the question though. If it was impossible for some reason, then I think positive rights might be the way to go just to have a decent standard of living.
My rationale for this is that if you have powerful individuals and corporations dominating everything to the point where your bill of rights just becomes a list of what are effectively false choices ("Sure, you have the right to not buy food from Standard Grub if you don't like our product! Standard Grub is the only food company in the country though and also controls the means to produce foods, so we're confident that you'll return to us!"), then what's the value of them?
But yeah, it depends on whether or not the hypothetical question allows for eventually obtaining the other type of rights in the imaginary country.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:54 am
I don't know. I'd still just be concerned about being forced to choose between bowing down to a monopoly or not being able to live. Like, if all the companies can just do whatever they want, then you might have to choose between living like a slave and not living at all.
"You want the job? It's 16 hours a day for 50 cents, not counting the deductions for food and stuff. And you have to live in the housing we provide, which will be another deduction. Don't like it? Fine, don't take it. But you won't be able to get a job anywhere else, and we'll make sure that our tax collector friends pay special attention to you. But hey, the 'choice' is yours! Good day!"
That's what I'd be afraid of.
I can definitely see the "Give me liberty or give me death" here, but do false choices really count as liberty anyway? That's all I'm saying.
(By the way, you can reply to specific comments now with the new comment system.)
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 am
Yes, I suppose if the given was that you could have one OR the other, without ever getting the other rights, then the question in this depressing country is which rights provide the least hardship or make it the most tolerable to survive. I guess the choice is to have a low standard of living with a hard life but with personal freedoms vs. a higher standard of living in a more totalitarian culture: skinny and free vs. fat and mind-controlled. My idealist side would choose the former but my pragmatic (read lazy) side might choose the latter if you caught me at a really hungry moment.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 am
But then again, we're talking extremes here that aren't stipulated in the defined rights. Nowhere does it say that with negative rights you don't have an abundance of food. It's just not guaranteed. And nowhere in the positive rights does it say that Big Brother will control your every action and exploit you as a slave. With the rights given as defined I would choose the negative rights. If we're talking extremes then I think my long term sanity would still side with the negative rights. My mental state and desire for freedom would eventually dominate my thinking and I'd revolt and perhaps die in revolt in the extreme positive-rights country.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:29 am
The former is certainly the more romantically appealing choice, especially when you phrase it that way. But I still think it comes back to what your definition of "free" is. Would you really call either country free? I don't think I would. And so, it becomes just "skinny vs fat and mind-controlled," which can be logically viewed as "negative vs positive with a negative," doesn't it?
January 4th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Yeah, I clicked on it but for some reason it decided not to work.
January 12th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Obviously, you'll never have to choose just one or the other. That's why it's hypothetical.
If I absolutely had to choose, I think I would have to miserably pick positive rights because of what it would mean to live in a country with no police protection or minimum standard of living. My reason for that is that without police, how would my rights actually be protected anyway? And without some minimum standard of living, there would probably be some big nasty companies that would jerk me around just like during the Gilded Age, so even though I'd supposedly have liberties, I'd never actually be allowed to use them, which is the same as not having them anyway.
On the other hand though, since this is a totally imaginary situation anyway, maybe in this imaginary land, I'd still be able to have my negative rights even with nobody guaranteeing them. If that's the case, then I think I could take care of myself in a world without police, though that could just be naive. Still, I'm good with a bow and arrows, and I practiced karate for a long time, too, so I think I'd be able to defend myself and my property when necessary. At least until that mean old food industry tycoon named Phil Beck showed up with his guns and burnt my tiny farm to the ground. :P
Regardless of which imaginary land I went to, I'd definitely have to start or join a revolutionary movement of some kind. I think most of us would though if we really were in a world that absolutely lacked one type of rights or the other.
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